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Do you tell people that you have dyscalculia?





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eoffg
#1 Print Post
Posted on January 23 2007 09:51 AM
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Dyscalculia clearly has the sub-type Visual-Spatial Dyscalculia.
Where the Visual element refers to the ability to Visualise. Where we Visualise numbers, while doing mental maths calculations.
The ability to Visualise, is also called our Minds Eye, where we 'picture images in our mind'.
As you are reading this sentence, you quite possibly 'hear each word in your mind', without actually 'speaking them out loud'?

Just as we use our Minds Eye to Visualise images in our Mind.
Equally we have a Minds Ear where we imagine Sounds in our Mind.
When we 'speak out loud', it is termed as to 'Vocalise'.

But when we imagine the sound of words in our mind; Minds Ear.
Instead of Vocalise, this is called to: Sub-Vocalise.

For most Dyscalculics, who are generally strong Verbal Thinkers. This equates with strong Minds Ear Skills, to balance difficulties with the Minds Eye skills of visual-spatial thinking.
Yet, given that quite possibly you have a strong Minds Ear, and weak Minds Eye?
You might also be able to understand an 'opposite' problem?
Where their is a strong Minds Eye, balanced by a weak Minds Ear.
Perhaps you could consider the situation, where you couldn't use your Minds Ear to imagine words in your mind?
How would you even think about this question?
In terms of Maths, how would think about numbers, if you couldn't 'say the words/ numbers out loud in your mind?
This can also relate to recalling the 'Times Tables'?
Which most people recall Verbally in their Minds Ear.

For nearly a year now, I have been doing research and informal trials into Minds Ear. Where it hasn't been previously considered that one could have a difficulty with Minds Ear Skills.
Just as Dyscalculics often have difficulties with Minds Eye Skills.
Which has a little bit more recognition and understanding.
Whilst Minds Ear has greater relevance to Dyslexia and Speech Apraxia, it is also relevant to Dyscalculia.'
Though I would suggest that it could be helpful to understand both Minds Eye and Minds Ear, where if their is difficulty with one of them. The 'other' can be used as a comparison.
Afterall, it is difficult to understand something that we 'can't do'? if we 'can't do it?' We need something that we can relate to!
Minds Ear and Minds Eye provide this balance.

So this is a new area of discussion that I have introduced.

GeoffPfft,
 
Toe_Nail
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Posted on January 24 2007 03:32 PM
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Excellent topic Geoff Smile

I have been asking myself a lot of question on this. While I'm not sure that I have found the answer, I did try to make some sense in this all and came-up with conclusion. Conclusions which, when I started suspecting having a LD, reinforced or confirm to some extent my beliefs.

As you say, when reading, I am hearing each word in my mind. So is the same when I do maths; I hear the numbers in my mind, not see them - Yet (and why this topic espescially interests me) for everything else outside of reading, writing and counting, I use very little, to no internal dialogue. I think in pictures, I always have - I've asked other friends of mine and they say that they constantly hear an internal dialogue in their minds at the same time as they are thinking in pictures.

My neuropsy. test results indicate that I have very strong verbal skills but also very strong visual spatial skills. My conclusion is that despite my strong visual spatial skills, for some reason I can't visualize numbers very well. And for some reason I can't seem to use both conceptualisation methods together.

Since most people can both visualize and hear words/numbrs in their minds (to variating degree) I would suggest that visual spatial dyscalculia (to be noted that I'm said to be simply mildly "dyscalculic" with no mention weather it is visual spatial or of any other type) stems more from the inability to use visualisation in a specific set of task than weak visualization skills??

I'm curious to know What is your take on this?
 
Bonnie
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Posted on January 26 2007 02:15 AM
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Hello, I'm a 51-year old dyscalculic with an 8-year old son that's also showing signs of dyscalculia. Bear in mind, I had never heard the word dyscalculia until two weeks ago!

"We" are currently working on multiplication tables. I'm curious if others have had less problems with learning multiples of 2, 5 & 10 just because more time is spent skip-counting or group reciting by 2s, 5s and 10s in early education? It seems as though our Minds Ear recalls possible answers.

I've always had problems with occasionally transposing spoken numbers....but if only if they are called out as "fifty-eight" "nineteen." There's a good chance I may write down a 85 or a 91 instead but still repeat back the correct number.

But if someone says, 5...8...1...9 I rarely transpose any of the numbers. I'm curious. Is that my minds ear or minds eye?
 
ert
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Posted on January 29 2007 01:34 AM
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Welcome to the forum Bonnie Smile

I'm glad you finally heard the word - but where did you hear it?
 
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eoffg
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Posted on January 29 2007 09:58 AM
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Hi ToenPfft,
Sorry for taking so long to reply, though you raise a separate but related issue. Where you can very effectively use both your Minds Ear and Minds Eye. But as you wrote: "And for some reason I can't seem to use both conceptualisation methods together."
Though, it would seem to me that it could be more of a question about 'association'? Or rather an 'automatic association'?
Where as you write, that for more 'general' thinking, you picture thoughts in your Minds Eye.
Yet for reading, writing, counting, and numbers, you only 'hear' it in your Minds Ear.
So it's not that you can't do it the 'other way', but that this is how you automatically create a mental association.
Yet, Minds Ear and Minds Eye, are not something that we are 'born with', but are 'acquired skills', that we develop through practise.
Where equally the 'Automatic Associations' such as where you say that you automatically 'hear' numbers in your mind, rather than visual them.
Would equally be an 'acquired skill'?
Afterall, we aren't taught what we should 'think of in our mind', visually or verbally?
Though further to this, is the ability to freely switch back and forth between Minds Eye and Ear? Where they provide re-inforcement for each other. For example, to hold a number such as: 274 in our mind.
It's not a case of just recalling Visually or Verbally in our mind.
But rather, using one after the other, to keep it in Working Memory.
Where we only hold visual or verbal images in our mind, for about a second. Before it disappears. It needs to continually refreshed.
Which is where the combined use of both Minds Ear and Minds Eye play a crucial role. I picture in my mind: 274, then say out loud in my Minds Ear; two hundred and seventy four, which then recalls the visual mental image, which I then verbalise again.'
So each play an important role in retaining each other in Working Memory.
So the question is about what are skills involved with this 'switching back and forth, between Minds Ear and Minds eye?
GeoffPfft,
 
Toe_Nail
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Posted on January 30 2007 05:46 PM
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Thanks. Your explanation makes a lot of sense to me. I can visualize numbers a little bit but it would seem that I have problems refreshing the image and all I see is out of focus and usually not more that two or three digits at once. If I try to concentrate to get a clear picture of the numbers, I can only see one crispy clear number at a time. Often what happens is that by the time I managed to get a clear picture in my mind, I've forgotten what are the other numbers because I have neglegted to repeat them in my minds ear an therefore can't reproduce them visually.
 
dawn
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Posted on January 30 2007 11:49 PM
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This is interesting . Do you think this may be the essence of why my 6 year old cannot add on 2 without a visual clue such as a numberline.maybe he can't visualise or verbalise the next step.He can add on one butthen he is out of his comfort zone and sits and daydreams instead of answering the question .What now how do I proceed. he is ok with visual clues.
 
Toe_Nail
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Posted on January 31 2007 03:41 AM
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dawn wrote:
This is interesting . Do you think this may be the essence of why my 6 year old cannot add on 2 without a visual clue such as a numberline.maybe he can't visualise or verbalise the next step.He can add on one butthen he is out of his comfort zone and sits and daydreams instead of answering the question .What now how do I proceed. he is ok with visual clues.


I don't know if this helps but it never really occured to me until only a few years ago how important visualising numbers in the minds is for mental calculations - Then I realized that possibly the reason why it never occured to me is that it felt unatural to do.

In schools, they teach kids to count but does anyone ever tells them that they are supposed to visualise numbers in their minds? How one should expect a 6 year old to figure this out on his own is beyond me Sad

Also, this probably will interest you. A couple days ago I was wondering to myself if visual attentional skills could have an impact on working memory? Then it just hit me, of course it does. If one fails to focus on details, there obviously are things that go un-noticed. And if there are details that one doesn't notice, how is he supposed to represent it in his mind? then analyse it? and understand it?
 
eoffg
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Posted on January 31 2007 08:44 AM
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Hi to both of you and thanks for your repliesPfft,
Where I would begin with ToeN's :"In schools, they teach kids to count but does anyone ever tells them that they are supposed to visualise numbers in their minds? How one should expect a 6 year old to figure this out on his own is beyond me "
Where your question highlights the basis of my research into Working Memory.
Where Working Memory is a 'hidden secret', that is happening privately in each person's mind/ brain.
So we have no idea of how other people are using their Working Memory?
Which relates directly to my introduction of Minds Ear/ Sub-Vocalisation.
Which is just as much a 'hidden secret' as Visualisation. In fact, more of a secret?
Close to a year ago, as a result of my research into Visual and Spatial Working Memory. Which are both 'acquired skills'.
It occurred to me that if this applied to Visual-Spatial Working Memory, or 'Mind's Eye'. Then this would equally apply to 'Minds Ear' and Auditory Working Memory?
As I am also involved with Dyslexia and Auditory Processing Disorder. On various Forums, I introduced this question about Minds Ear.
Where just as we our Minds Eye to visualise in our mind.
I began asking Parents to ask their Child if they could use their Minds Ear, to 'imagine the sound of words in their mind'?
Where both of you, Dawn and Toen, can probably easily imagine the 'sound of words' in your mind. As you read this sentence, you probably 'hear the words'.
So I began an informal study, where over the past year. I have had about 50 responses from Parents, who have talked to their Child about Minds Ear and being able to imagine the 'sound of words in their mind'.
Where a common type of response from children, was: "Do you think I'm crazy, of course I dont hear words!"
They simply didn't know that people 'imagined the sound of words in their mind'?
Afterall, no-one told them about this?
Which comes back to ToeN's statement: "In schools, they teach kids to count but does anyone ever tells them that they are supposed to visualise numbers in their minds? How one should expect a 6 year old to figure this out on his own is beyond me"?
In relation to Minds Ear, based on a review of research, I identified some simple exercises for developing Minds Ear. Basically involving practising 'imagining Pitch', and the range of Pitches that we can hear.
Also, imagining 'Rhythm', which is the other major element of Minds Ear.
Where Rhythm provides a structure to arrange a sequence of various Pitches, in our Minds Ear.
Where I'm happy to have had reports of children; Being able to imagine the 'sound of words in their mind'.
Where the main point, is that it wasn't some permanent physical brain dysfunction, that was causing this difficulty.
But simply that they didn't know that people could do this? No-one ever told them about it, or taught them how to do it?
Where I would highlight: 'taught them how to do it?'

Which is where I come in? Until now, it has been assumed that we 'automatically' develop our spectrum of Working Memory abilities.
Which 'grow' just like our arms and legs.
Where the term 'Implicit' is used, suggesting that we are either born 'with or without it'.
I'm simply challenging this assumption.
ToeN, in relation to your :"I can visualize numbers a little bit but it would seem that I have problems refreshing the image and all I see is out of focus and usually not more that two or three digits at once. If I try to concentrate to get a clear picture of the numbers, I can only see one crispy clear number at a time."
Their is a crucial element that you are missing in the 'refreshment process'. Which basically involves 'looking around', the mental image.
Our Minds Eye actually works in the same way as our Vision.
When you say that: "If I try to concentrate to get a clear picture of the numbers, I can only see one crispy clear number at a time."
Perhaps as an example, you could focus on the 'letter U' in following word: DYSCALCULIA.

As you focussed on the 'U', the letters surrounding it, no doubt became blurred?
But now look above at the word again, as you normally do.
Where no doubt you take the word in as whole, as your eyes 'scan around it'.
Which is in fact, an advantage of Minds Eye, where multiple elements can be held as a single image. Just as you can read a collection of letters as word.
Maybe we could discuss this further under the Visual-Spatial thread?
GeoffPfft
 
pepperp
#10 Print Post
Posted on January 31 2007 03:39 PM
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The Mind's Ear fascinates me. I have a high school age son who has no subvocalisation for reading. He thought I was crazy when I asked him about the voice in his brain.
I assumed everyone subvocalised. I find when my subvocalisation is muted, my comprehension is diminished. When I read, my subvocalisation seems to take on different tones - sarcastic, depressed, etc., depending on what I am reading. I find that when I am reading writings of people I am familiar with, the subvocalisation seems to be done in their voice. I can hear their frustration or their sadness, which sometimes takes people aback.
Because I have done this all of my life, I thought it was normal.

So the question of this day: Can the ability to subvocalise be developed if it is not an innate skill? How do people compensate for not having a Mind's Ear?
Geoff, thanks for sharing your insights.
 
Toe_Nail
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Posted on January 31 2007 07:00 PM
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You asked me to visualise the word Dyscalculia, this is what I see in my Mind's eye:
YS c (u) L ia

The capital letters are out of focus letters but that I can guess what they are. The letters missing are letters that I do not see at all. The small caps letters are letters that I do not see but that I can sesnse that they are there because I hear them in my mind's ear and by doing so, I can make those letters appear (tho the other ones dissapear) and finally, the letter U which I marked in between ( ) I could hear it but I didn't mannage to make it appear. Maybe I suppose because I was trying too hard and then all the letters dissapeared Sad

Whie I grant and completely understand that using the mind's eye/ ear are skills that can be developped, as you suggest, this raises another question: How come some people naturally developp these skills while others don't? This brings us back to the point I wanted to make earlyer but that I forgot to close the loop so to speak, about visual attentionnal skills. Not that this is the case for everyone, but in my case at least, because I have a visual attentionnal deficit; this means with my eyes wide open, stareing at the word "DYSCALCULIA" in front of me, I can see the whole picture of the word but somehow I fail to see all of its components/the letters its made of. Then trying to reconstruct in my mind this picture with missing details becomes difficult. But I do know what the word sounds like so I compensate with my minds ear which, would be the natural thing to do for anyone in this kind of situation.

What I'm trying to say is that, it isn't that I haven't learned to use my mind's eye. It is, I beleive, that I cannot use it efficiently because of this visual attentionnal problem. So I naturally compensate using the mind's ear. Earlyer I wrote that I realized that the reason why it never occured to me to visualize numbers in my mind is because it felt unatural to me and... it is.
Not trying to contradict you or anything, but just saying that there may be an underlying cause as of why a person develops or not to use the Mind's eye or ear. The skill can be thought I beleive, but as long as certain conditions are met. Does that make any sense? Anyway, sorry for the lenghtypost.
 
eoffg
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Posted on February 03 2007 07:59 AM
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Hi PepperpPfft,
I'll start a new thread, where we can discuss exercises to develop Minds Ear.
Though I was pleased to read that you have been exploring your own Sub-Vocalisation. Where I found your observations of 'different tones' most interesting. Where the same words or sentence can be used to express different 'feelings'.
The 'basic tools' involve Pitch and Rhythm/Tempo.
Along with the ability to 'Capture, Hold and Recall' - Pitch, Rhythm and Tempo.
But then, to become a 'Composer', where we can create sounds in our Minds Ear? For an example, I open my dictionary and look for a long unknown word? I found: Primogeniture ?
Despite having never seen this word before, I can take the different phonemes, and using sub-vocalisation. I can imagine how the word would sound, in my Minds Ear. Which you can also probably do easily.
Then I could also imagine how it would sound as a 'question', then as an 'order', then in general conversation. Where subtle variations occur.

My point is that Sub-Vocalisation involves not just recalling 'sounds' in our Minds Ear. But also being able to use it creatively.
So this will be the aim of the exercises.
Though you also asked: "How do people compensate for not having a Mind's Ear?"
Typically they develop exceptional Minds Eye abilities.
Anyway, I look forward to discussing these exercises further.
GeoffPfft,
 
eoffg
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Posted on February 03 2007 09:40 AM
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Hi Toe-NPfft,
I've been thinking about your posts, where I would begin by asking about your 'Reading Speed'?
Where I would make a guess that you are a fast reader?
A natural 'Speed Reader'?
I have been researching 'Speed Reading', where their are two basic skills involved.
Where in fact, one relates to Sub-Vocalisation- Minds Ear.

Yet, the other one relates to what is called: 'Peripheral Vision'.
ToeN, as you read this line across the page, perhaps you could notice how many pauses, your eyes make, as you read across the line.

Perhaps 3 or 4? Where visually you take in 'blocks of words'.
Though- I- have - been - involved - with - helping - children - that - read - visually, - word - by - word.
That - do - not - take - in - written - words - as - visual - blocks - of - words.
Where the exercises involve practising to extend what is called 'Peripheral Vision'.
Which are also used to teach Speed Reading.

But, what hasn't been considered, is the opposite situation?
Where one has developed Peripheral Vision as the dominant way of retrieving and processing visual information?
Just as Speed Reading programs teach one to extend Peripheral Vision.
Equally exercises could be used to develop the opposite to this?
Given that both are 'acquired skills'.
You wrote: "I can see the whole picture of the word but somehow I fail to see all of its components/the letters its made of. Then trying to reconstruct in my mind this picture with missing details becomes difficult."
Though the keywords here are: 'whole picture' and 'reconstruct'?
Where we actually want to 'De-construct', and look into the 'whole picture', at the details.
Which basically involves; looking around the whole picture, at the details.
Maybe you would like to try out some simple exercises?
GeoffPfft,
 
Toe_Nail
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Posted on February 03 2007 05:22 PM
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Hi again Geoff,

To answer your questions above, my reading speed is slightly below average but not enough to be a problem. I make more frequent reading mistakes though. I find that I guess the words (and I'm pretty darn good at it) more than I actually read them.

When I read, I see one word at a time, not groups of words. I cannot skim read to save my life. This is aproblem I find, when watching movies in a foreign language with subtitles. I often cannot read the subtitles fast enough and I don't get to see what's going in the movie because I'm too focussed on the subtitles.

In my neuro-psy assessment, about my visual attentionnal difficulties, it has been noted that I take significantly longer than average to identify/recognise and analyse written symbols. Several visual attentionnal tests were given to me. My performance in these range from weak, to very weak and to extremely weakin one test in particular. However, in those tests where I performed better (weak performance) it has been noted that even though I take longer than average to perform the tests, I made zero errors - It seems that I know just what to do to compensate and I'm doing it.

Interestingly, this same "taking my time to do thinggs right" attitude has been noted all over, in every part of congitive functions. Even in areas that I'm extremely good at; I could go faster, but I don't. I show little to no impulsivity. It would seem that this is how I learned to "function" and that it works so well, that my brain decided to apply this strategy everywhere.

So there you go. I favor quality over quantity. I can live with that Grin

Edit: but yes, I'd be curious to try some simple excercises Smile
Edited by Toe_Nail on February 03 2007 05:28 PM
 
dawn
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Posted on February 04 2007 09:19 PM
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Toe-nail ( painted not fungal!) I really like reading your posts. I'll tell you why. Because, you show that you accept that you have a functional problem and you are so pragmatic . You just accept it and then you learn coping methods and ways to adapt and live with it rather than fighting and struggling and focussing on failure.But you are also still intrigued by your situation that you are still loooking for improvements in your coping strategies. You give me some hope for my son . It's good because I need someone pragmatic whenever I get panicked and morose. that's all .Just thought I'd tell youSmile. Dawn
 
Toe_Nail
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Posted on February 05 2007 12:34 AM
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Thanks Dawn (now I'm blushing)

You know, I like doing personality tests (as a matter of fact any kind of test) There are a lot to be found on Internet. I can spend hours doing tests for fun. Anyhow, when personality tests asks "Are you pagmatic?" there was a time where I always answered "No" - I never thought of myself as pragmatic. It is only quite recently that I discovered that I really am. The more I think of it, the more I realise that I been pragmatic my whole life. Funny, isn't it?

You know what I think? I think we live for the purpose of discovering who we are. That the longer we live, the more there is to discover. And that the older we get, the better we become at discovering who we are. Being a child has got to be the hardest thing ever. They are completely clueless about who they are. But as long as a child has good, loving and caring parents to help them unfold, they'll be fine and the future ahead can only be easyer. Smile
 
Anastasia
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Posted on April 03 2007 07:49 AM
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Geoff,

I asked my daughter if I said 23 could she imagine it in her mind. She said yes but the two is over there (Left side) and the three is over there (right side) but they are not together.

Your exercises of closing eyes and listening first we did it to background noise and the first one she pointed to the opposite corner and then self corrected - the second one she pointed to the opposite corner.

In the quiet room. I was right hand behind her and she pointed to left in front of her. When I was left in front of her she pointed to the right of her in front.

Anastasia
 
eoffg
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Posted on April 03 2007 09:25 AM
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Hi AnastasiaPfft,
Thanks for the reply and for trying out the exercises.
As I've raised a hypothesis that I'm researching, in relation to Auditory Processing Disorder, and the particular 'Figure/Ground' difficulty.
Where my suggestion is that this can be a result of an Auditory-Spatial working memory difficulty.
But a most important factor, is that Auditory-Spatial working memory, is in fact a collaboration of both Auditory 'and' Spatial working memories.
Just as Visual-Spatial working memory, is a combination of Visual and Spatial working memories.
Where from your report of the exercises, rather than a difficulty with Auditory and Visual working memories.
The common factor could be with a Spatial working memory difficulty?
Which could have its origin, in your daughters now corrected: 'eye convergence difficulties'?
Where the main value of having 2 eyes, is that enables us to see in 3 dimensions, rather than 2.
Basically it enables us to comprehend space.
Yet if you consider this, in relation to a child that has 'eye convergence' difficulties?
Whilst both eyes are absorbing visual information.
Rather than 'merging' into a single 3D image, they will remain as two separate images. One from the left eye, and one from the right eye.

So when you wrote: "I asked my daughter if I said 23 could she imagine it in her mind. She said yes but the two is over there (Left side) and the three is over there (right side) but they are not together.'
She is actually seeing in her mind, an image of 2 from her left eye, and an image of 3 from her right eye. As 2 separate images.

What I'm getting at, is that whilst a difficulty with 'eye convergence' might be 'physically' corrected.
Spatial Working Memory, also needs to be retrained, so as to interpret this new 'convergence' of visual information?
Which is not currently done.
GeoffPfft,
 
Anastasia
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Posted on April 03 2007 01:12 PM
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Geoff,

quite interesting. she does have problems with visual spatial skills and the memory and you are right - that is some of the areas she is going to be trained in soon.

Anastasia
 
dawn
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Posted on April 08 2007 10:10 PM
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How do you train a specific part of the working memory? I tried kumon as it is repetitive and an exercise in poor parenting ( ie fighting your child to get the work done ) . I would assume that if I had a willing cjhild, that would help but I don't know how to train suditory and visual working memory specifically. I don't suppose it matters if Miles is so unwilling but it might all chhange again in another month and ,hey ,it's a lifetime problem so I have time .
 
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