Hello, everybody I am a History/PHI/English major and currently going to a community college. I cannot put into words how much I enjoy the Liberal Arts in general; however, math is going to make my education come to a complete halt this summer. The last prep class Intermittent Algebra is holding me back. I just cannot pass this class and I am on the third try. I am angry about the fact that the community college makes me take this prep class when any one of my majors only required Logic or Liberal arts math to receive my AA. The school is forcing me to pay and fail for a math class that does not count towards a math credit. Not to mention it is harder than Liberal arts math requirements.

I am one hundred percent willing to take the math classes required for my major and confident I could pass them. My academic outline does not show this class being required but the college seems to think I need it for my major. I just do not know what to do about the current situation. I have papers for dyslexia and ADHD but none of that does me much good. What good does extra time do me for putting a negative instead of a positive or just plain not knowing what to do?
Edited by Tiako on March 19 2010 06:37 PM

Location: Texas USA Posts: 6315 Joined: 2008-05-25

3/19/10
Dear Tiako,
Well, you've at least found the right forum to talk about it! You're currenty studying in a cc. But, have you already been admitted into a 4-year university? Or, are you planning to first finish your AA degree before starting at the Uni? You say that you are taking "Intermittent Algebra". Excuse me, but did you mean to say "Intermediate Algebra"? I failed that one three times myself. In my case, I only paid for one of those failed attempts 'out of my own pocket', but I did loose my Financial Aid for failing it three times, meaning that, for my next semester, I had to change colleges to somewhere that would give me Financial Aid. I got very good at writing Appeals Letters to Financial Aid.

I'm trying to put into perspective what you've said here: "I am angry about the fact that the community college makes me take this prep class when any one of my majors only required Logic or Liberal arts math to receive my AA." I'm in Texas, so I'm not sure what you mean about 'why' your cc would require you to take a prep class when your major only requires Logic or Liberal Arts Math to receive your AA. Is that a 'minimum' math level that must be met for admittance to the program? Are you talking about those first 'levels' in math and reading that must be met, perhaps to take before going beyond the first nine college credits?

In my case, after the testing and the diagnosis for Mathematics Disorder, I did, in fact not have to take more math classes. I took Logic and that replaced my math requirement. However, those three failed math attempts were necessary, in my case, to establish that I'd made a 'good faith effort'. - jus'

Sorry I used auto spell check and it must have changed the word to Intermitted. Anyways the colleges here make you take classes that do not count for math credits before you can take credited math classes. Did the math class you failed three times count for math credit and towards your degree?

I am at a CC trying to transfer by completing my AA as I will not be able to transfer to a university without it.
Edited by Tiako on March 20 2010 05:12 AM

twistedxkiss wrote:
Why not? I transferred from a CC to a university without an associates degree.

The college I want to go wont let me in without an AA. The chance of getting in is just about zero but if I had my AA I have a very good chance of getting in.

Location: Texas USA Posts: 6315 Joined: 2008-05-25

3/20/10
Okay, I think that I'm understanding a little better now. In my case, that math class that I failed three times did not count as 'college credit' either - like yours.

In my case, at that college, I was working on finishing my AAS Paralegal degree. The AAS Paralegal degree required very little core curriculum, and consisted mostly of Paralegal courses. But it did require College Algebra. That would have been the math course that gave College Credit. (Elementary Algebra and Intermediate Algebra are 'developmental' math classes that do not give college credit. This is probably what you are calling a 'prep' class.) I've never attempted Intermediate Algebra, as I can't even pass 'Elementary Algebra'. Some colleges here call 'Elementary Algebra' 'Pre-Algebra',... same thing.

Okay, so my cc where I'd done all the AAS Paralegal courses agreed that I could replace my College Algebra credits with a Logic course. I took Logic (at a different cc), got an A, and the first cc gave me my Diploma. This was about six weeks ago.

If I had wanted to, I could then have had that AAS Paralegal degree transferred to a 4-year college that offers a 4-year Paralegal degree. But, I decided that, although I loved the Paralegal Courses and did well at them, it would be nice to do a Bachelor of Fine Arts as my 4-year degree.

At this point, I realized the great advantage of finishing my AA degree at a cc, before tranferring it to a 4-year college, as it will transfer 'as a block',... and any State University in Texas is required by law to accept the Core Complete that the cc gives me on my transcript. It's not that I couldn't have gone on to the 4-year university without having the AA degree. But it gives me some extra reassurance that I've at least 'finished' something. I'll have two, 2-year degrees completed by next December,... the AAS Paralegal degree, and the AA degree.

I'm in the process of getting my Logic class approved by an educational review board at the State Capitol so that those College Algebra credits are Substituted, and will become part of the 'block' of Core Complete credits, which State universities are compelled by law to accept.

Now, back to your situation. I'm guessing that you are not in Texas? And yet the designations that you use sound "American". So, I'm guessing that you are somewhere within the United States. That your university of choice does not 'let you in' without an AA sounds unusual (as TwistedxKiss also mentioned), so I'm guessing that you are trying to get into a 'private college'. Is this correct?

Perhaps the part of your first post that I most 'identified with', and that I've felt 'first hand' myself, was what you said about your other diagnoses only giving you 'extra time' in the math tests, and asking 'What good' that can do if you can't get the right answers on the problems. That is my situation precisely at the 4-year university where I'd like to attend. The Head of Disability Services there will only honor one (mis)-diagnosis that I have which does not give me Mathematics Disorder. Hence, she was very happy to give me 'extra time' on my math tests,... but on the basis of my (mis)-diagnosis, not on the basis of my Mathematics Disorder diagnosis. And, she said that I would not be allowed to Substitute the math credits for my degree there. So, in this, you and I are 'in the same boat'. My strategy is to finish my AA degree, having math covered by Logic, and transfer that 'as a block' to the university where the Head of Disability Services has not recognised my MLD, hoping that if I transfer it 'in' this way, it will be a matter of "law" that the university will be obligated to accept that substitution. Whether or not this 'strategy' will work remains to be seen.

Please tell me what is the "Liberal Arts Math" that you refer to in your first post? Is this something that may have been previously called College Math? Also, you mention your Majors as only requiring you to take Logic or Liberal Arts Math. Are you referring to your 'Major' at the cc? Or, are you referring to the Major that you plan to take at a 4-year Uni? On the Degree Plan pages of the cc catalog, are there any 2-year degrees that only require Logic or a Liberal Arts Math? I'm at a point with these question where, honestly, I'd have to take a look at your cc's catalog to get a clearer picture of what you are 'missing' in order to fulfill their requirements.

I am, nevertheless, suspecting that an official diagnosis of Mathematics Disorder might help your situation. Could you ask your disability counselor about the possibility that a MLD diagnosis could allow you to have a Substitution? - jus'

See here is the thing I do not even need them to substitute logic and Liberal arts for my current class. You see when you go a community college without taking the SAT/ACT first then they make you take their placement test. This placement test will let you start at college level classes and get college credits or force you to take their set of prep classes.

I did poorly the math section of the test so they made me take this class and the ones before it. Now this class does not count as math at all. As they only require students who do poorly on their placement test to take this class. So if I would have did well or had taken the SAT/ACT I would not even be in this class..

Since this is the case if they decided to remove the flag making me take the class it would not affect me transferring to the state university here. The state university for History/English/Phi only requires that I take two math classes of any type. I can take whatever I want and there are much easier classes than the one they are making me take for no math credit.

Liberal arts math is dealing with real world issues. Here is a link..

Location: Texas USA Posts: 6315 Joined: 2008-05-25

3/20/10
Dear Tiako,
I took a look at the link you gave us, and I see what you mean. The actual credit class that's required for your AA degree, MAT 106 - Math for the Liberal Arts, looks like a glorified statistics class. But, in order to qualify to take this class, you would have to have passed the 'placement test', or else, to get to take that credit math class, you'd have to take the classes that you didn't 'test out of', perhaps MAT-098, or, if you'd gotten a higher score, taking Mat-099.

CC's in Texas are the same, in that, there's a placement test, and if the score isn't high enough, the student is required to take 'developmental' math classes, which (just like in your college) do not count for college credit. These 'developmental' classes then lead up to the credit class. The difference being that, at least to me, that final MATH 1314 - College Algebra class, looks a lot more difficult than your college's MAT-106. I'll paste below the comparison of a Texas cc with the PA cc. However, I do see what you're saying, in that, the lower level 'prep' courses that you are being required to take appear to be more difficult (since they contain algebra, this looks more difficult to me) than the final 'credit' class that you'd be having to pass had you passed the 'placement test'. Yes, I see what you mean.

Below, you'll see the 'similar' situation in CC's in Texas. In my case, I took DMAT 0090 and got an A. But, when I took DMAT 0091, I failed it three times. The Texas cc is listed first and the PA college is listed second. Still, if you can't pass the 'prep' classes, getting tested fpr Mathematics Disorder, and providing the Disability Office that disability documentation may be the only thing that you can do to graduate. Perhaps with that documentation they would let you take the MAT-106, MATH for the Liberal Arts class. I don't know what they would say, but you could make the request. - jus'

https://www1.dccc...ourse=DMAT A TEXAS COMMUNITY COLLEGE
DMAT 0090 Pre Algebra Mathematics (3)
Prerequisite: Developmental Mathematics 0066 or an appropriate assessment test score.
This course is designed to develop an understanding of fundamental operations using whole numbers, fractions, decimals, and percentages and to strengthen basic skills in mathematics. The course is planned primarily for students who need to review basic mathematical processes. (3 Lec.)
Coordinating Board Academic Approval Number 3201045119

DMAT 0091 Elementary Algebra (3)
Prerequisite: Developmental Mathematics 0090 or an appropriate assessment test score.
This is a course in introductory algebra which includes operations on real numbers, polynomials, special products and factoring, rational expressions, and linear equations and inequalities. Also covered are graphs, systems of linear equations, exponents, roots, radicals, and quadratic equations. (3 Lec.)
Coordinating Board Academic Approval Number 3201045119

DMAT 0093 Intermediate Algebra (3)
Prerequisite: One year of high school algebra and an appropriate assessment test score or Developmental Mathematics 0091.
This course includes further development of the terminology of sets, operations on sets, properties of real numbers, polynomials, rational expressions, linear equations and inequalities, the straight line, systems of linear equations, exponents, roots, and radicals. Also covered are products and factoring, quadratic equations and inequalities, absolute value equations and inequalities, relations, functions, and graphs. (3 Lec.)
Coordinating Board Academic Approval Number 3201045219

https://www1.dccc...ourse=MATH
MATH 1314 College Algebra (3)
This is a Texas Common Course Number.
Prerequisite: Two years of high school algebra and an appropriate assessment test score or Developmental Mathematics 0099 or Developmental Mathematics 0093.
This course is study of relations and functions including polynomial, rational, exponential, logarithmic, and special functions. Other topics may include complex numbers, systems of equations and inequalities, theory of equations, progressions, the binomial theorem, matrices and determinants, mathematical reasoning skills, sequences and series, and applications. This course is cross-listed as Math 1414. The student may register for either Math 1314 or Math 1414, but may receive credit for only one of the two. (3 Lec.)
Coordinating Board Academic Approval Number 2701015419

http://www.lincol...T-098.html A PENNSYLVANIA COMMUNITY COLLEGE
COURSE ID: MAT-098
COURSE NAME: Algebra I
CREDITS: 3
COURSE DESCRIPTION:
This course is designed to study the basic concepts of arithmetic and algebra, the real numbers, first degree equations of one variable, inequalities, exponents, polynomials, factoring, algebraic fractions, coordinate geometry and linear systems, rational exponents and radicals, quadratic equations.

http://www.lincol...T-099.html
COURSE ID: MAT-099
COURSE NAME: Algebra & Applications
CREDITS: 3
COURSE DESCRIPTION:
This course consists of selected topics that include factoring polynomials and rational expression, roots and radicals, quadratic equations and inequalities.
PREREQUISITE: MAT 098 (Algebra I) or Placement

http://www.lincol...T-106.html
COURSE ID: MAT-106
COURSE NAME: Math for the Liberal Arts
CREDITS: 3
COURSE DESCRIPTION:
Math for the Liberal Arts is an introduction to non-technical applications of mathematics in the modern world. The course is designed to cultivate an appreciation of the significance of mathematics in daily life and develop students' mathematical reasoning. Subjects include Quantitative Information in Everyday Life, Financial Management, Statistics, and Probability.
PREREQUISITE: MAT-099 (Algebra & Applications) or Placement
Edited by justfoundout on March 21 2010 12:44 AM

Yes indeed it sounds like we had pretty much the exact same problem. Thanks, I will look into talking to the disability office; however, I still wish I could just pass the class

Location: Texas USA Posts: 6315 Joined: 2008-05-25

3/23/10
Of course you do, and I wish that for you, too. It would make things so much simpler. Also, I have a friend who is sure that she is dyscalculic, but will be trying to pass the math classes 'sans' diagnosis because she has two little boys, and she says that she wants to 'set the example' for them, that their 'mom' was able to pass math, so they must try to pass it, too. I applaud her efforts. But, sometimes it just gets very expensive to keep taking and failing course after developmental course, and all the while, not having a good job, in part due to a lack of any 'degree',... and then, add to that the loss of Financial Aid due to all the failing grades,... LOL, and like in my case, it's like when somebody trys to win at the Olympics and doesn't,... then 4 years later, tries again and doesn't,... then 4 years later,.... I mean, c'mon, for how long are we going to keep doing this? So, I hope that you pass, because you deserve it. But, you are certainly not alone if you opt for getting a class substitution for you math credits. And, BTW, Logic wasn't all that easy of a class to pass as a 'substitution'. - jus'